[digital_buyer]

看到一篇有趣的新聞，大家可以去看看，原來大陸數碼相機市場可以好黑暗 ...

http://blog.yam.com/digitalking/archives/873591.html

[nell_may]

Coz SONY didn't show their "respsect" to the government, ha

[insane]

digital buyer,

my reply to other link on similar question is repeated below for people like you. did it ever occur to you that you are really bias to start with?

http://dcfever.com/forum/read.php?f=1&i=347595&t=347595

"To some, it is always the Chinese who is at fault, and Sony can't be touched, and can't be wrong. I wonder what kind of sick logic is this?

Get the following facts straight:

- there have been lots of recalls recently by various camera makers on faulty CCDs made by Sony. So Sony is not God. It can have its share of quality problems as well. So please stop finger pointing the Chinese automatically the very first instance.

- in the past when China just opened up, many Japanese companies had been making tons of money by unloading second-rates/ obsolete production facilities in China. So in all dealings, it is not the Japanese who is always holding the moral high ground.

- decades ago, Hong Kong was the testing ground for many new Japanese electronic products (amplifiers etc.). If there were design faults with these new products, these models just wouldn't appear in the all important US and EU markets. I had been the victimes of a few badly designed and built yet expensive amplifiers/receivers that were sold only in HK and not elsewhere. So there is different markets for different products for many Japanese companies.

- since not all cameras are created equal even under the same model, ask yourself, what happen to the batch that just made (or miss) the quality requirements. Do you really think they will all be junked.

Critical thinking, guys. and don't always defend you favorite brand(s) like your mother, and not all decisions by the Chinese offiicals are always evil minded.

get real, guys. "

[henryng2004]

insane.

Did you ever deal with the China officials?

I deal with these fellows since the last 6 years and what I can assure to you this that those people are hopeless SOB that only care about their own money, not the warefair of the country or the citizen. The one who have power are absolutely corrupted. Just a matter of degree.

So if I guess from my experience with the China officials, I would believe that Sony is not the bad guy. After all, it is impossible to have 6 submission all fail in a row, Does it sounds strange to you?

Also about the thinking about the WTO. Please remember that it is always the government of those so-call affected countries that wanted to join the WTO. Nobody force them. On one hand, those countries want to get the benefit to earn some money from the other countries but on the other hand they fail to help those people who hurt by joining the WTO. All in all, the one to be blame should be the local government of those poor countries who fail their fellow citizen.

Just some personal idea.

[insane]

henryng2004,

I don't question your sad expereince, but that I do question the way you generalise things based on your limited expereince. not all Chiense officials are hopeless as you have tries to paint.

I am not saying whether Sony is at fault of the local Chinese officials, but I am sickened by those who would automatically assume it is the Chinese officials who is at fault without even spending a few seconds to look into the matter.

Yes. Third world countries, including China, are full of corruptions. Look at our neighors Laos, Cambodia and Vietnam today, plus many other third world countries.Corruptions are everywhere. But don't forget all developed countries have gone throuh this process one time of another. Hong Kong is no exception. Do you know the tie before ICAC? Give these developing coutnries time, and they will come around. And think think US and the like are all clean. They just fxxk their invstors (like Enron etc.) big time using more elaborate scheme.

I dare to say that as far as corruption goes, China is improving along the way quite nicely too. Just be patient and don't write her off yet. Today's China has come a long time from that of just 10 years ago. Give her time, and she will do your proud.

When you talk about WTO, this is one area I have lots of strong feelings. My photo posting a few weeks ago (see the link here http://dcfever.com/photosharing/viewphoto.php?photoID=304743 said it all). It is not those who wants to join WTO for the first time that is at fault. I 100% disagree with you on this. WTO is getting to be the big boys' club, that is what I hate to see Newcomers to WTO are subject to harsher and harsher entrance requirements.

Don't for a moment believe the developed countries like US, EU and Japan are true believers and true practitioners of fair free trades. You have heard about the subsides for thier own farmers. You have heard about the qoutas for textiles. But I bet you haven't spent time looking into the issue of technical barriers, anti-dumping etc. Go search the web to find out how difficult it is to export rice and beef to Japean, for exmaple. Look up the case of shrimp and sea turtles issue that involved US using the issue of protecting turtles to stop shrimp imports from the developing countries. Then look at cotton issue, banana issue with the EU ...... Even between neighbors, US is not abiding recent NAFTA ruling on unfair duties it placed on softwood coming from Canada despite the agreed dispute settlement process had ruled in favor of Canada. Then look at how US, EU etc. using anti-dumping to harass trades from others, inluding those rom HK.
The developed countries have all the resources to have strong teams to get the best benefits from the little guys. Nowadays, one needs trade to get itself out of poverty and a true WTO and free trade are supposed to do just that. But the reality is the developed countries like US, EU always put their short term local interest at first (that is why I have not much sympathy for the Korea farmers). They want third world to open on services sector (meaning banking, insurance, etc) in exchange for buying their cottons, coffee etc. Can you imagine how a small countries like Sri Lanka, for example, can compete head to head with the big insurance comapnies from US.

The developed countries are now practising "kicking the ladder" game. They have been using cheap labour, polluting the water and air to make steel and other idustrial goods for the last 150 years. They built their empires on exports. Now their industiral goods are not competitive becaus of high labour cost and land cost. They are now turning around to require the newcomers to comply with a host of enviromental rules, labour rules, human right ... issues. I am not saying these issues are all worng, but many of you will be surprised to know many are done to serve selfish trade interests.

Please take a critical look around. And you will know there are lots of hypocrisy around involvoing the big developed coutnries. And not developing ones are just trying to look for a chance to survice and stand o their feet. Please give true free trade a chance. Give these poor countries a chance to learn to feed themselves.

[ppwu]

日本仔要玩野我地就賠佢玩

[henryng2004]

insane.

It is you that trying to label other people to said that "Chinese people are automatically wrong". Nearly all the people here are saying that it smell fishy that there are something quite wrong in this Sony story. Your altitude is the real problem and you are jumping thread to thread to do your propaganda!

Answer my question. How long have you been dealing with the China government officials. Chairman Mao said that, "no reasearch, no right to speak.". You are telling people that you travels the world. Then tell me how long have you been dealing with the China Government Officials? What I can tell you from my REAL (or you prefer to said limited) experience is that the corruption in China today is worst than 6 years ago! I think this is against your wisdom. The corruption in China today is getting more insitutionalized and people are taking it for granted! Under what ground you said that China are getting better? Sad? Absolutely when I consider myself as Chinese. China is facing a lot of internal problem and the present growth is at the expense of the future. Do you know how bad is the pollution in those industrial area in China. Who is paying the price for it? China will get more and more unstable as the internal conflict will get worst in the near future. I suggest you to get you ass up and do some real study in China to understand what I say here.

There are nothing call fair in the real world. That fact that you born in HK and can do this kind of bala bala is already unfair. If you were born in Africa, you can hardly get yourself feeded. The only thing that we should fight for is the right to protect ourselve against bad governing and the freedom of speech. All the rest about fairnessless in the international politic is just plain bullshit. As for the WTO thing. Remember that even China just join the WTO not long ago. Individual country can always choose not to join the WTO should they think that it hurt the country more than the benefit. It is always the local government that decide to join the WTO. Yes, the WTO is a big boy's club. But nobody force any country to join. Remember, not all country need to export in order to feed themselve. Only that when you have the wisful thinking that other people will like to benefit you that you will start to fall into traps. This is the REAL WORLD and jungle principle applies here.

Since you quote examples, then I would like to quote another example as well: Do you know how many billion dollar penality the Malaysia Government paid in order to protect their automobie industry for not openning up according to the WTO time table? There is always a choice from the local government to help which one and to kill which one. What we see mostly on the TV are mostly the weak one being killed. I am not saying that this is correct but hey, it is the choice of their own mother government! Most of the time it is their own government give up on their own people! Another example is the famous South Korea farmer. Do you know how much money the Korea put into supporting the hi-tech industry and those giant company like Samsung and LG. Just a fraction of the money can make their fellow farmer a good living. Another good example is that the threat to the local Korean market is not limited to the so call modern countries. Do you know that the import of Kimchi from China to Korea is bigger than the domestic production. Do you think this is funny, considering Kimchi is such an important food product for the Korean. There are a lot of reason to fail. Finding a black sheep is always the easier method to make yourselve feel good.

I've been reading extensively on this WTO/Globalization things since 3 years ago starting with a book call "Globalization and its discontents". Of cause the WTO is a big bullshit but the bigger problem I think is the bad governmenship in the local country.

[insane]

henryng2004,

6 years in China and you know it all. Hat off to you. Wait till you have been dealing with the officals there for 16 or 26 years, and I can't image what authority you will like to present yourself to be.

Whether I should get my ass up to study China, as you suggest, is an area I don't want to get into, but I trust in future discussion, you can act your age and behave. I am interested in discussing bigger issue. You have been losing your cool and try to get at the personal level. I am just too old for that. Let's just say we are in a different league and I am not game with your personal thing, got it?

I didn't say I travel around the world, but did say I have been to many places. Let me add that many of these at places are third world countries, and I have seen first hand how the other half live. That is why when you say if they don't want to join WTO, so be it. Pardon me but I find this argument quite laughable. I don't know what you have been reading for the last three years on WTO matters but apparently you have got the fundamental all mixed up. In this globalised world, do you really think a poor country can survive by closing in and not trading with others. And if they want to trade, do you think they really have a chance to make their own trade rules when faced with the big guys like US, EU on a bilateral level, and not taking refuge under the multilateral agreement framework like WTO. Get real, buddy. What have you beeen studying? Did your study World Trade Organisation matters, or Women To gO?

I know the Malaysia car industry and the Proton story well. But what puzzle me is why are you qouting an example to support my argument? I advocate true free trade and no qouta, no subsidies. Which side are you on anyway? Or do you know yourself?

When you try to present you are well read on the WTO subject, and seems to have misgiving on government deciding which industry to keep and which to kill. On this note, do you believe in comparative advantages of the different places? Or you a true believer of jack-of-all-trade?

Let's keep the discussion rational. if you resort to childish behavior again, I would just have to abandon you. You can continue to tell the world how they should behave based on your six years REAL life expereince in China. I won't bother you. But I just hate to be assocaited with Mr know-it-all. Don't tell me I didn't warn you, Henry.

[kenkong]

唔知係邊個childish及get at the personal level呢？一開始第一個留言已經扣帽子話人：『.....defend you favorite brand(s) like your mother... 』？

[insane]

Oh. I forgot. One more point henry said "After all, it is impossible to have 6 submission all fail in a row, Does it sounds strange to you?"

On this, I see nothing wrong. This is called batch failure and it is quite common a whole batch or shipment fail to meet standards. You see it in food products, you see it in others. What so strange?
..............................

Kenkong,

say whateever you want. You have my blessing. I see no merit in engaging you now unless you have some real insights to add on the topics being discussed here. Good luck.

[kenkong]

insane兄，

我引用緊你所講過的說話，你想要甚麼『real insights 』呢？

[insane]

kenhong,

Henry at leat shows me he is the intellect type who likes to read, think, debate, and get to bottom of things. He has something concrete to add to the discussion altough I don't necessarily agree with most fo them (that is life, and that is how we all laern from each other). So, at least please show us some of that quality Henry has shown. OK?

[henryng2004]

Challenging me that my experience did tell the whole story doesn't means that you are right. After all, you did not really answer the question I put up to you. So be it.

I'll stop here for the same reason that you said. We are of a different league.

If you want to start a fight so that you can start your lesson to all the un-englighten one. Be it.

If you want to start a fight so as to do your propaganda. It is up to you.

For now. Good Bye.

[insane]

henryng2004,

If you can't handle serious discussion, and prefer to call such discussion a fight, then I over-estimated you earlier.

I don't answer your question of how long I have been dealing with the Chinese government since I find such question totally irrelvant and laughable. Specifically knowing you ventured to make sweeping statement only after some very limited dealings with some Chinese officals while you were there.

What made you so bold to make such a sweeping statement that ALL Mainland officals are corrupted SOB? After all, even assuming your business had to deal with mainland officials day in and day out, your experience probably limit you to hundreds of junior to mid level officals at several cities at best, plus perhaps a handful of provinical characters. A far cry for you to judge the whole Chinese governemnt and slender all of them in one stroke. Am I right? Even if I were working with them for 100 years, it is still not enough for me to say for sure what all officals are behaving there. China is so big and one place is different from another. This is not a number game. It is an issue how self-centered you are and how large you see yourself inflated. Such self-centreness just happens not to be my cup of tea. So I ignore your irrelevant and meaningless question.

I deal with many businessmen from many countries. Quite opposite to what you have said, almost all of them are having increased confidence in the Chinese governemnt and the system there, and are PUTTING MONEY where their months are. China is attacting the single highest FDI in the world. What do you have to say about that if the place is so corrupted.

I am not saying it is corruption free in China. No. Right from the start, I agree it is still a problem in China but the situation has been improving a great deal over the years and are lot better than other countries like Laos, Cambodia, the Phillpines, India etc. Give it time, that is all I have been saying, and don't write off China so readily, whether you want to call yourself a Chinese or not.

Young man. Don't generalise too readily, or you will get yourself in trouble one day. Six years of business expereince is peanuts, sorry to say. In the circumstances, sweeping statement is just a reflection of your own inflated ego and small town thinking. Take that as an advice from me, no charge.

.................................................

d2c,

Don't be such a paranoid. If I were working for the Chinese government, would I be wasting my time with you and a few others fighting over whether Sony is greatest camera maker who can never have localised quality problem, and whether the issue is a ploy by the corrupted Chinese Central government out to get a few Sony digicam models that are made in China? I just find it funny every time such issues come up (speically with Sony), there is always a group of diehards defending the brand(s), even to the extend of smearing a government (which happen to be governing my country, probably not yours).

Call me whatever you want, but I would prefer to have my leaders like Hu and Wan any day over a democratically elected joker like Bush any day. Does that make me a hated communist automatically? You be the judge. I really couldn't care less.

I was born in Hong Kong, and raised there. But there was a period of time I was studying and working overseas. Decades ago, I had seen first hand how Chinese people were pushed around in other countries when Chinea was weak. I myself got into a dozen of fist fights when being called "chink". I prayed to God then wishing China would become strong one day. She is heading the right direction nowsdays. Thus this is why I am so pissed when I see Chinese looking people in HK nowadays are belittling themselves and putting down their own country at all cost. Call me whatever you want but if we were to meet up decades ago, surely we would be engaging in a fist fight even if you look yellow outside. I love banana and eat them for lunch. If any of you are yellow on the outside and white inside, watch out and don't run into me since I may still not be able to control my temper despite all these years.

[kenkong]

insane兄，

原來你話我冇提出有關你想討論的問題的論據。

但我只想指出當你話別人childish及get at the personal level時，你自已有沒有檢討自已所講過的說話？我引用番你所講過的說話，有沒有問題大家自有看法，就因為我只引述你的說話而不加個人意見討論你便話我沒quality？

假如我話我唔明得晒你寫的英文，不敢亂入加討論，咁係唔係代表我冇quality？